Curse

godis · Jan 21, 2011, 06:57 AM // 06:57

They should un-nerf it.
And bring back 600/smite also.

The game lost most of the fun things we could do in the past.

Harashima Maki · Jan 21, 2011, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I've never really used invinci builds but that doesn't mean I want them nerfed.
A lot of people really enjoy using these builds and, if it makes the majority happy, I think these builds should stay as they currently are.
The onslaught of SCs HAS lowered prices for most rare-skin weapons but a lot those skins were doomed the moment EotN came out (anyone remember sephis axes, ele swords and legendary swords?) and when they do go down in price say from 300e to 30e it puts the weapons in reach of players who don't have as much money but likely gain it from non-SC methods. Just because someone isn't a l33t ecto trader who can make thousands of ectos a day through powertrading asian minipets, doesn't mean they should not have access to the rarer, and often better looking, weapons.
In addition, when GW2 eventually comes out most of these weapons will be useless anyway, with only a small remaining player base, they can't be taken into GW2 and prices will probabaly fluctuate even more.

/notsigned

Spiritz · Jan 21, 2011, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I do have to lol when players do say about the economy and bring up weapons and sometimes minis like dhuum.Why do i lol ?
Because its not anet who sets the prices but us players and that means its not anet to blame but ourselves.
A damn gd example i can give is consets - last time i was in toa ( just before xmas ) consets were priced at 8k and we all know how easy its to farm the mats - even a new player could farm them after a few days as the builds have been on pvx and here on guru.But when i went to toa yesterday i was surprised to see them going for 9k - a 1k hike which when i looked at the mats prices from npc theres only a slight flux in the prices.We`ve all seen feathers before rise and fall in price but you tell me how the hell can it force prices up when we know for a fact if you farm the mats you make approx 6k profit a set ??.
Before you assume im a conset user im not - i do every so often sell bulk consets when i need the cash but i know the profit margin and to me it looks like either the true conset farmers are getting greedy or the ppl who cba to farm conset mats and buy them off players are getting greedy and players are just following suit.
Is the conset price rise donw to anet - nope as i dont see npcs selling them but again its us players.
In the real world - if you had say mcdonalds and burger king in the same street trying to get customers you see a price war and often nice offers but if theres only 1 of them in the entire town then there isnt any real offers - no competition.
Players who sell ambraces moan the prices drop - i bet even now they moan if ectos went to 15k each but players who want to buy them are happy the prices drop as they become more affordable.
Has gw become a game of greed where everything is greed driven ( and i dont mean the players who want obby armor for the first time for their HoM ) i play the game , and i have a nice amount of cash but im not driven to be the richest player in gw with every uber high weapon etc - hell in almost 4 yrs of playing ive never got myself obby armor as ive never had the need nor do i spend each day attempting to get rich.Some days im lucky if i cba to make over 10k and other days im lucky if i make any cash at all and i know theres many players out there like me - if we need cash we know to make it easily.
Thats the end of my wall of text and someone else can climb on the preachers pulpit and take over lol.

diabiosx · Jan 21, 2011, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Lets put it this way.
invincibuilding always fun even when there was nothing valuable to farm(look at totem axe and griffons)
truly soloing an area is fun to alot of players because it makes their character feel important/strong.
GW2 is a soloable game which meant Anet learned from GW1 that heroes/setting the pve world mechanic into a 8 vs. X play style is not fun.
A game that plays itself is not fun(FF13).

Killed u man · Jan 21, 2011, 02:52 PM // 14:52

All I know is that my PvE warrior is completely useless in every HM pug group elite area, except DoA, and that's only thanks to a really overpowered elite that other classes still use better.

If you can't see how solo builds simply don't work in a massive multiplayer online game, you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

Given, there's is no universal right or wrong in this matter, but an easy analogy can be drawn to similar situations which do have universal rights and wrongs. Think scamming for example: Not one person in their right mind would allow scamming to be part of the game, and therefor it is concidered universally wrong.

By allowing solo builds, or even highly specialized teambuilds which can only be played by certain professions (Assassin), you're not only taking away the ability for the non-used professions to farm/get XX item/gold, you're also devaluating the market price of that item/gold by allow many others to farm it instead.

"Make a sin" is offcourse always an option, but then Anet should ball up and rename their game: Assassin Wars. If this is an arguement for anyone (anyone can make a sin), the community has come to a really sad state.

Tough note: I have nothing against solo farming and specialized team builds. I think UWSC's are a rather competitive business, and solo farming certain areas gives an amazing feeling. I was one amongst the first wave of 55 Monks (back in beta/right after) back when you used to get 10-15 ectos per smite run. (Before loot scaling)
Being able to solo things, or steamroll them with friends is something that should be a viable option, but the problem is that the rewards increase exponentially compared to playing the game how Anet intended it to be played.

So by allowing these builds to exist, you're not only giving the choice to people to run these builds, you're also taking away the choice to not run these builds, because they're so redicilously ineffective compared to the farmbuilds.

So this reduces the intire discussion into a simple choice:

a) Do you want everyone to have a hard time gaining resources, but they're worth alot.

b) Do you want to force people into certain professions, farming easy resources which are worthless, and even more worthless for the non-farmers.

Carboplatin · Jan 21, 2011, 03:19 PM // 15:19

SF is still overpowered, but thats old news and beaten to death.

For those that say SF is not overpowered, check out the speedclear records page.

Given the players in there combine SF with good tactics, SF centered teams have the ability to do fow in under 10min and doa in half an hour, etc etc

If thats not overpowered, i don't know what is?

Cuilan · Jan 21, 2011, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

makes their character feel important/strong

Guild Wars generally is not a solo game and numbers on your screen are generally double or triple digit. With your view why not make all skills do over 100,000 damage, instantly recharge, and give players unlimited armor/health?

That isn't a game. That isn't fun. The game needs boundaries to be rewarding and balanced.

MithranArkanere · Jan 21, 2011, 04:38 PM // 16:38

God mode is only a good idea in single-player games, so they can have fun without affecting anyone else.

In multi-player games, any form of invincibility only lets you do things you should not do, since you doing them like that is unfair for players that won't or can't use such gimmicks and mechanic loophole abuse.

When removing those things leaves a profession completely degraded and barely usable in PvE, then that profession must be fixed, but they should not keep the gimmicks.

Bright Star Shine · Jan 21, 2011, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

All I know is that my PvE warrior is completely useless in every HM pug group elite area, except DoA, and that's only thanks to a really overpowered elite that other classes still use better.

If you can't see how solo builds simply don't work in a massive multiplayer online game, you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

Given, there's is no universal right or wrong in this matter, but an easy analogy can be drawn to similar situations which do have universal rights and wrongs. Think scamming for example: Not one person in their right mind would allow scamming to be part of the game, and therefor it is concidered universally wrong.

By allowing solo builds, or even highly specialized teambuilds which can only be played by certain professions (Assassin), you're not only taking away the ability for the non-used professions to farm/get XX item/gold, you're also devaluating the market price of that item/gold by allow many others to farm it instead.

"Make a sin" is offcourse always an option, but then Anet should ball up and rename their game: Assassin Wars. If this is an arguement for anyone (anyone can make a sin), the community has come to a really sad state.

Tough note: I have nothing against solo farming and specialized team builds. I think UWSC's are a rather competitive business, and solo farming certain areas gives an amazing feeling. I was one amongst the first wave of 55 Monks (back in beta/right after) back when you used to get 10-15 ectos per smite run. (Before loot scaling)
Being able to solo things, or steamroll them with friends is something that should be a viable option, but the problem is that the rewards increase exponentially compared to playing the game how Anet intended it to be played.

So by allowing these builds to exist, you're not only giving the choice to people to run these builds, you're also taking away the choice to not run these builds, because they're so redicilously ineffective compared to the farmbuilds.

So this reduces the intire discussion into a simple choice:

a) Do you want everyone to have a hard time gaining resources, but they're worth alot.

b) Do you want to force people into certain professions, farming easy resources which are worthless, and even more worthless for the non-farmers.

No idea how long you've been playing, or how much you know of past farming builds, but WARRIORS were the first and the best at farming smites in UW. They still are btw. Warriors dominated the farming scene for years, because they are very, very strong. And warriors are still the foundation of FoW clears, so saying you're useless in every elite area is a whole load of bullcrap all together. There are plenty of manlyway builds for dungeons, DoA (manlyway DoA used to hold the record for quite a while) etc etc.

If you can't see how this game actually works, you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

diabiosx · Jan 21, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Guild Wars generally is not a solo game and numbers on your screen are generally double or triple digit. With your view why not make all skills do over 100,000 damage, instantly recharge, and give players unlimited armor/health?

That isn't a game. That isn't fun. The game needs boundaries to be rewarding and balanced.

which is why i am so glad that GW2 is a solo based game.(why do you think presearing is sooo fun?? because people are soloing) Most people in GW enjoy invinci builds and Anet can see that. The fact that they made a business decision to make GW2 the way it is means you fanboys of hero/hench are the minority.

hero/hench gameplay is like Salt and Vinegar potato chips, Not alot of people like them but there's still some fans.
Solo gameplay is like Nacho Cheese flavor.

Or a game analogy
Call of Duty MW2 vs. the new medal of Honor
certain changes just makes the game more/less enjoyable

Nuff said

PS how does solo gameplayer relate to doing 100000000000000000damage?

coil · Jan 21, 2011, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I propse Anet stick by their Anti-Invincibuild stance. 600/Smite was nerfed for this reason. If Anet was serious about this, wouldnt they nerf SF/ER as well? I'm not totally against all invincibuilds, I just think Anet should quit sitting on the fence about it. SF is at the heart of almost every SC in the game. Is that not imbalanced when compared to other professions and protective skills? What do you think? How should this be implemented? Nerf skills like SF? or buff the areas to counter where skills like SF are most often used(Soulrending Shriek, touch skills, etc)?

I'm not talking specifically about SF, but it is the 800lb gorilla in the room.

clarify "invincibuild"

better yet, post an example of a build that is truly invincible in every single area of the game on its own.

i think you're more upset with how some professions utilize many defensive skills to give them specific protective advantages in certain in-game areas.

and that, my friend, is playing the game, knowing your enemy, and picking a synergistic skill-set to trump the area.

crying about how the game has evolved over 5 years won't bring back your prophecies glory days.

BlackSephir · Jan 21, 2011, 05:31 PM // 17:31

At this point it's really more trouble than it's worth.

Killed u man · Jan 21, 2011, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

No idea how long you've been playing, or how much you know of past farming builds, but WARRIORS were the first and the best at farming smites in UW. They still are btw. Warriors dominated the farming scene for years, because they are very, very strong. And warriors are still the foundation of FoW clears, so saying you're useless in every elite area is a whole load of bullcrap all together. There are plenty of manlyway builds for dungeons, DoA (manlyway DoA used to hold the record for quite a while) etc etc.

If you can't see how this game actually works, you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

Warrior's weren't the first solo farm, Monks were. Given, Warriors have the natural ability to tank, but even their armor couldn't match up against smites and/or Aatxes. Unless you've been playing another game, I would love to see the builds warrior used to solo smites with.

The ONLY thing I can recall doing damage back in the day was either SS, Shield of Judgement and Balthazars Aura. And offcourse cyclone axe spam, but it's not like that killed fast by any measures.

The ONLY Warrior UW solo pre-factions I knew about was before the superiour absorption nerf, and even then, I don't remember the exact skills, but I highly doubt a W/Mo would've killed faster than a 55 Monk pumping balthazar's auras.

Also, you're correct about the FoW. That's a commonly ran build, but everythign else. "manly"-way isn't by any means fast. It's fun, it's good for a change, but there's a reason why every SC happens with Sins. I maybe shouldn't have said warriors are useless, because I knew someone would turn it around in: "Warrior's aren't useless, therefor your intire post is wrong"

The essence of my first post still holds all value it did before. Single professions having acces to the "solo"-PvE (including shadowform poop) are not good for the game.

Let me rephrase: they are good for the game, as long as people gain less than 1/8th rewards of a full team. In other words, playing with 8 party members gets promoted over playing alone, but playing alone is still an option.

Speedclears and such simply need to go. I've you don't see how a massive flood of goods pumps the market down and devaluates everything there is (when that good happens to be the currency), I gues you've never had basic economics before...

Missing HB · Jan 21, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I would say /signed , not because it's too OP , but because less OP builds got nerfed in the past , places like UW got much harder for non sc teams ( whereas SF are still able to finish it easily..), almost every dungeon can be run by a SF, etc.... Also , because players are getting way too arrogant with these fast farms....

When you remember on the early prophecies people being happy after getting 10k on elona reach after some hours , and now people are like " omfg 2 mn too late to finish uw " or like " nice joke only 5 ectos upon 2 runs " .. really....

gremlin · Jan 21, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Originally Posted by gremlin View Post
It really doesn't influence how I play the game
I have tried many of the invincibuilds and find them boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

You just don't know how untrue that statement is.

This isn't a single player RPG where you don't interact with other players.

A player's choice to use SF perpetuates the metagame which discourages diverse profession use and non SC builds.

Your choices influence the game not only directly but indirectly as well. You choosing to believe the game revolves around the exploitation of time/profit ratio has a profound effect.

Dervishes, Paragons, and Rangers have by default less of a chance to be assimilated into teams because of the product created by the socialized tendency of people to overfarm the game with the same professions.

This cheapens the experience for anybody who chooses not to pick professions that are commonly used to exploit speed runs.

In this scenario, it becomes pick X profession or be punished by suffering inadequacy.

My game experience
I have played very little pvp because the setup is entirely wrong you need areas for newbies to play and others for the more seasoned players and free areas where anyone can play.
Until they do that pvp will be ignored by me.

pve in the first couple of years was great I joined a guild "still in it" and had loads of fun with pugs Guild and Alliance members.
Last 2 years has been 99% solo just me and the Ai with occasional missions with friends.

I play what classes I like whenever I like and with what builds I like.
The day players started dictating my build before I joined their party was they day I stopped caring about what other players did in this game.

Pugs are a free area you play what and how you want to and if you want to form a team and order every team skill then go join a guild.
Most of these petty dictators are not in guilds because they are so annoying they have been chucked out and seek to organise every player they meet.

Tough I am not playing YOUR game I am playing MY game so as I said go ahead play one class one build invinci or otherwise I hope you have fun.
What you does in no way affect me.

GW 1 is not a multiplayer game and hasn't been for some time it is mainly a loose collection of solo players who get together to farm cash items and titles.
Hence the reason for dictating builds, if you nerf every single build currently used for farming they will be replaced in a week by others.

I am not trying to come over all hostile with anyone here just calling it as I see it.
Anyone coming up with a way of fixing this game that looks as though its worth trying will get my 100% support

Cuilan · Jan 21, 2011, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

which is why i am so glad that GW2 is a solo based game.(why do you think presearing is sooo fun?? because people are soloing) Most people in GW enjoy invinci builds and Anet can see that. The fact that they made a business decision to make GW2 the way it is means you fanboys of hero/hench are the minority.

hero/hench gameplay is like Salt and Vinegar potato chips, Not alot of people like them but there's still some fans.
Solo gameplay is like Nacho Cheese flavor.

Or a game analogy
Call of Duty MW2 vs. the new medal of Honor
certain changes just makes the game more/less enjoyable

Nuff said

PS how does solo gameplayer relate to doing 100000000000000000damage?

This isn't Guild Wars 2, you can't balance a game that wasn't meant for such play with such skills. Pre-Searing is enjoyed for many reasons including nostalgia and simplicity. I hardly full H/H and only when I feel I must, so stop with the made up who's the majority and assuming what kind of player I am.

Bright Star Shine · Jan 21, 2011, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Warrior's weren't the first solo farm, Monks were. Given, Warriors have the natural ability to tank, but even their armor couldn't match up against smites and/or Aatxes. Unless you've been playing another game, I would love to see the builds warrior used to solo smites with.

The ONLY thing I can recall doing damage back in the day was either SS, Shield of Judgement and Balthazars Aura. And offcourse cyclone axe spam, but it's not like that killed fast by any measures.

The ONLY Warrior UW solo pre-factions I knew about was before the superiour absorption nerf, and even then, I don't remember the exact skills, but I highly doubt a W/Mo would've killed faster than a 55 Monk pumping balthazar's auras.

Also, you're correct about the FoW. That's a commonly ran build, but everythign else. "manly"-way isn't by any means fast. It's fun, it's good for a change, but there's a reason why every SC happens with Sins. I maybe shouldn't have said warriors are useless, because I knew someone would turn it around in: "Warrior's aren't useless, therefor your intire post is wrong"

The essence of my first post still holds all value it did before. Single professions having acces to the "solo"-PvE (including shadowform poop) are not good for the game.

Let me rephrase: they are good for the game, as long as people gain less than 1/8th rewards of a full team. In other words, playing with 8 party members gets promoted over playing alone, but playing alone is still an option.

Speedclears and such simply need to go. I've you don't see how a massive flood of goods pumps the market down and devaluates everything there is (when that good happens to be the currency), I gues you've never had basic economics before...

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/D_Manly_UW_Farmer

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/Me_Hund...ades_UW_Farmer

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/any_Enduring_UW_Farmer

And, ok, you were right about the monks being first to farm UW, gotta give you that, but warriors are still pretty good at farming, and tanking, Ssins are currently just better at it, which is why they're preferred, I remember when Defy pain tanks, or Obby Flesh warriors dominated the farming scene, hell, if you dig up old DoASC threads, you will find OF warriors were the tanks back then.

And, the 1/8th thingy, it's called lootscaling, and Anet did that YEARS ago, so you're kind of late with that.

Mia Clemons · Jan 21, 2011, 06:42 PM // 18:42

What are you crying about?? 600 and SF are not invincible anymore. 600 can still tank all day long but do little to no damage without outside assistance (human smiter). The fact is, 600 is very viable tank build that serves its purpose: staying alive. SF only blocks spells now but is still very susceptible to attacks. (I dare you to run in a group of rangers or melee in HM with SF up and tell me your not getting hurt). While the SF tank can still stay alive with SoD and Mental Block etc, it isnt invincible in the least.

I think Anet balanced the tank builds out pretty well.

/notsigned

El Perma Shadow · Jan 21, 2011, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I got plenty of examples to disprove your point. The damage by SF has been done, as shown (for r9 weapons):
1. Emmy blades used to cost 130e are now 30e (this is the worst case scenario)
2. Obsidian edges used to cost 100e+ are now under 70e.
3. Silverwings used to cost 250e+, but now just under 150e.
4. BDS staffs dropped in prices significantly for all professions. Prot ones used to go 500e+, now just over 200e.
5. Miniature Dhuum (from UWSC) dropped from 600e to 250e.

I could go on and on with the examples how mass dungeon/elite clears using SF as the core build for a) tanking, b) skipping most of the dungeon, c) killing enemies using earth/mes builds....ruined the prices of hard to farm skins.

So from looking at your post I have realized two things:
Your made you can make as much money as you use to whilst powertrading/ farming slow-mode and you hate poor people.

not signed too many threads is more than enough. no need for nerf make other skills better. Next VoS is going to be overpowered.

I'm going to make a post about getting people short bans for making stupid repetitive threads.
People please dafs before you make a thread. Thank you -Perma

X Dr Pepper X · Jan 21, 2011, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Text about why PvP is unappealing to you that overshoots the point of this conversation

Irrelevant.

Quote:

Text involving your dislike of PUG players who try and force people to run certain builds that overshoots the point of this conversation as well

Partially relevant. The metagame dictates how willing people are to accept a diverse party

Quote:

Tough I am not playing YOUR game I am playing MY game so as I said go ahead play one class one build invinci or otherwise I hope you have fun.
What you does in no way affect me.

Wrong. You are playing a game formed with a non official socialized construction of tendencies, patterns, and rules.

A player who wants to go as a Dervish in a SC run is out of luck because the typical norm of GW's metagame does not involve Dervishes. Due to these non official social rules that are invented to increase efficiency, speed, and ease of SC runs, other players are being excluded.

I believe this is due cause for nerfing Shadow Form as it contributes to the exclusion of many players and professions and because it reduces the game into a single tactic of speed clearing high end areas for profiteering.

Quote:

GW 1 is not a multiplayer game and hasn't been for some time it is mainly a loose collection of solo players who get together to farm cash items and titles.
Hence the reason for dictating builds, if you nerf every single build currently used for farming they will be replaced in a week by others.

If GW1 is not a multiplayer game, how are there multiple players playing within the same game environment interacting with eachother?

You contradicted yourself.

You should look up the definition of multiplayer.